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Comparative expertise
July 3 2007 at 8:06 PM filterpatrol (Login filterpatrol)
Melody Maxim wrote:

"FILTERPATROL: Maxim knows medical perfusion, but not hypothermia and resuscitation.

It's absurd to think a perfusionist isn't knowledgeable about both hypothermia and resuscitation, as I most certainly am."

The context of my remarks was not that you don't know more about hypothermia and resuscitation than a layperson, just much less than Dr. Harris who for 20 years has been reviving animals from extremes of temperature and ischemic time far outside anything ever done in clinical medicine. I know it's hard to respect someone after a debate gets personal, but as someone who has read Harris' writings on technical subjects for many years I can tell you that respect concerning technical issues is warranted.


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cytosine
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Re: Comparative expertise
July 3 2007, 8:42 PM

"Dr. Harris who for 20 years has been reviving animals from extremes of temperature and ischemic time far outside anything ever done in clinical medicine."

This was much more of a collaborative endeavour than your phrasing suggests.




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filterpatrol
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Good point
July 3 2007, 9:24 PM

Yes, without prior knowledge of the historical background, what I wrote sounded too much like Dr. Harris was solely responsible for Cryovita/21CM/CCR resuscitation experiments. There were certainly others involved, especially Mike Darwin. My point for present purposes is that Harris was Darwin's intellectual peer in those experiments, and as a principal investigator in this field has much more knowledge of resuscitation medicine than a clinical perfusionist.


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Melody Maxim
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I Smell a Platt
July 4 2007, 9:43 AM

Filterpatrol's use of terms such as, "Nelsonism" and "comparative expertise," and his writing style, in general, reek of Charles Platt. Add that to an obvious knowledge of key institutions and players such as Cryocare, Cryovita, 21CM, CCR, Harris and Darwin, and you have someone who is well aware of the history of cryonics. Yet, in his last post, "filterpatrol" states he had "no prior knowledge of the historical background"? Get real. Does "filterpatrol" think the people reading this forum are idiots? (Thinking others are too ignorant to question him is classic Platt, also.) It's obvious filterpatrol has plenty of prior knowledge.

FILTERPATROL: "Yes, without prior knowledge of the historical background, what I wrote sounded too much like Dr. Harris was solely responsible for Cryovita/21CM/CCR resuscitation experiments."

FILTERPATROL: "My point for present purposes is that Harris was Darwin's intellectual peer in those experiments, and as a principal investigator in this field has much more knowledge of resuscitation medicine than a clinical perfusionist."

He knows "Harris was Darwin's intellectual peer in those experiments," but he didn't know Harris collaborated with others??? I might argue that Harris' academic research and controlled lab experiments on dogs in no way compares to my use of hypothermia on 1,500 human patients, just as he argued that Becker's "results from cells in culture don't necessary mimic results of either antioxidants or oxygen in organs and animals." I had a great deal of respect for Harris, before he decided, (or was ordered), to get in the line of fire between SA/Platt and me. I still have a lot of respect for his work, and I plan on studying it at length, (not to criticize, but to learn from). However, I now have a new opinion of him, personally.

My main purpose in coming here was to draw attention to the fact that, in spite of their slick web site and lofty claims about their "expertise," no one at SA is qualified to perform the services they are attempting to sell, and as far as I can tell, there has been no research going on at that facility for the duration of its entire existence. With the exception of Mathew, these people are just punching the clock; they don't care about cryonics; it's a (very high-paying) job for them, not a vocation. I believe the main reason for SA's short-comings isn't some tax write-off scheme on Kent's/LEF's part, as some have claimed, but the greed and egotistical requirements of one man.

In my opinion, Charles needs to stick to science fiction writing and give up on debate. I almost wish Kent would find himself a new hired pen; I'm getting bored with SA's Plattitudes, even as presented by Harris.

"platitude: A trite or banal remark or statement, especially one expressed as if it were original or significant"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/platitude


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Steve Harris
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Pay attention
July 4 2007, 2:00 PM

Maxim: I might argue that Harris' academic research and controlled lab experiments on dogs in no way compares to my use of hypothermia on 1,500 human patients,

COMMENT: You might argue that, but it would be a funny argument. Tepid hypothermia at a few degrees below normal body temperatures (which does very little that a cryobiologist would care about, during a perfusion) in no way compares with asanguinous perfusion at temperatures below which cardiac rhythm is possible. How many total blood washouts did you do? You mentioned ONE.

MELODY "just as he argued that Becker's "results from cells in culture don't necessary mimic results of either antioxidants or oxygen in organs and animals."

COMMENT: Becker himself states that. It was his argument before mine.

Steve Harris



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Melody Maxim
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Paying Attention and Profound Hypothermia with Circulatory Arrest
July 5 2007, 10:53 AM

The reason I said "might" would be exactly as you have proven...never mind, you don't get it.

Now, YOU pay attention...

It is wrong of you to assume, as I believe you have, that my group performed most of our procedures at tepid temperatures. If we were doing only one, or two grafts, we used "mild hypothermia" (down to 32 degrees C). If we were doing three, or more, grafts, or expected to be on bypass more than 30-45 minutes, (and a majority of the time, we were), we used "moderate hypothermia" (32 down to 28 degrees C). Occasionally, we employed "deep hypothermia" (28 to 18 degrees C), and on rare occasions, "profound hypothermia" (below 18 degrees C). Before you work yourself into a lather, some people, (though usually not perfusionists, or cardiac surgeons), use the term "tepid" instead of "mild," and some sources vary the exact ranges of hypothermia by a degree, or two.

HARRIS: How many total blood washouts did you do? You mentioned ONE.

If you were truly paying attention, you would know I have not claimed to have performed ANY total blood washouts, as I have not. I referred to a "profound hypothermia with circulatory arrest," case and the associated exsanguination. I don't believe "washout" and "exsanguination" are interchangeable. (I know, I know, I can hear you all groaning at the terminology debate!) Washout implies some sort of active flushing, such as in the cryonics washout procedure, while what we did was exsanguination,(the draining of the patient's blood volume into a reservoir). For those of you who missed it:

FROM MY EARLIER POST: "I’ve participated in many “profound hypothermia with circulatory arrest” cases, (the patient is cooled to below 18-degrees C, and then they are exsanguinated, (yes, that’s correct, we drained the majority of their blood out for the procedure to be performed). At this point, they are clinically dead, no brain activity, no respiration, no blood flow, nothing. They underwent the necessary procedure, (usually a repair of the ascending aorta), and then they were slowly warmed back up. We occasionally had to exceed the recommended maximum time of circulatory arrest (45 minutes), once we went more than twice that, due to a heavily calcified, crumbling aorta, (thankfully, we had anticipated this and had cooled to well below 18C). That patient woke up with some neurological deficits, but luckily, they were transient. According to the patient and his family, he fully recovered in just a few months’ time. Walking around and eating is one thing, having your memory and personality intact is quite another."

And, no, Dr. Harris, I did not participate in only one of these procedures. I don't know the exact number, but I would guess around 45. My partner hated doing them, (they can be long and exhausting procedures, mostly due to the long cooling and rewarming times), so I used to volunteer to do take these cases for her. I thought they were fascinating. To cool someone down until even their brain ceases to function, drain most of their blood out, watch them lie on the table clinically dead for a period of time, and then to be able to wake them back up...it's nothing short of MIRACULOUS!!! I always considered it a privilege to participate in these procedures, or any of the procedures my team performed, for that matter. I'm damn proud to have been there, and I think my having been there qualifies me to comment on/contribute to the field of cryonics.

You've made assumptive errors, before, in our debates:

MY JUNE 14 POST: I’ve communicated with a couple dozen certified perfusionists, and thus far, I’ve been unable to get any of them to admit to starting off with their heater/cooler at zero, or exceeding the 10-degree gradient margin of safety.

YOUR JUNE 22 RESPONSE TO THAT STATEMENT: Yes, but remember that you're essentially talking about the sociology of Florida perfusionists. Don't confuse opinion polls with science.

REALITY: The perfusionists I polled live in California, Illinois, Michigan, Texas, Louisiana and Florida, and they are NATIONALLY certified by the American Board of Cardiovascular Perfusion. This has nothing to do with "the sociology of Florida perfusionists," it has to do with widely-accepted cooling parameters for procedures that employ extracorporeal circulation (perfusion). Maybe you shouldn't confuse laboratory science with what goes on in operating rooms.


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filterpatrol
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Sorry for my unclear writing
July 4 2007, 2:52 PM

By "without prior knowledge of the historical background", I meant "to the reader without prior knowledge of the historical background". I myself know a lot of historical background, and did not mean to suggest otherwise.

Perhaps the fact that I choose words poorly is sort of proof that I'm not Charles Platt, who is a writer by profession.

Re:

"My main purpose in coming here was to draw attention to the fact that, in spite of their slick web site and lofty claims about their "expertise," no one at SA is qualified to perform the services they are attempting to sell, and as far as I can tell, there has been no research going on at that facility for the duration of its entire existence. With the exception of Mathew, these people are just punching the clock; they don't care about cryonics; it's a (very high-paying) job for them, not a vocation."

With Platt gone (if indeed he is gone), that may well be the case. Platt's long history in cryonics demonstrates dedication, albeit rocky relations with lots of people and organizations.


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Finance Department
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Even Smellier, and Where I Would Prefer Not to Go, but ...
July 4 2007, 11:19 PM

Melody said: "I believe the main reason for SA's short-comings isn't some tax write-off scheme on Kent's/LEF's part, as some have claimed, but the greed and egotistical requirements of one man. ... In my opinion, Charles needs to stick to science fiction writing and give up on debate. I almost wish Kent would find himself a new hired pen; I'm getting bored with SA's Plattitudes, even as presented by Harris."

Somehow I have the gut feeling that Kent is really the chief reason SA is the way it is. How well did you really get to know him the few times he was at SA while you worked there? I don't know him either, but I'd be surprised if his general attitude is much different from Charles Platt's, Steve Harris', or any of the other several "inner circle" faithfuls who do his bidding and have been doing so now for nearly two decades. Most of these have likely, indeed, gotten many of their own attitudes from listening to Kent. This is the dark side of what money can buy, and in saying that I fully recognize and appreciate the bright side of it and what the Kent/Faloon/LEF empire has funded in R&D and other cryonics-related areas.


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Steve Harris
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Re: Even Smellier, and Where I Would Prefer Not to Go, but ...
July 5 2007, 12:23 AM

FD: Somehow I have the gut feeling that Kent is really the chief reason SA is the way it is. How well did you really get to know him the few times he was at SA while you worked there? I don't know him either, but I'd be surprised if his general attitude is much different from Charles Platt's, Steve Harris', or any of the other several "inner circle" faithfuls who do his bidding and have been doing so now for nearly two decades. Most of these have likely, indeed, gotten many of their own attitudes from listening to Kent. This is the dark side of what money can buy, and in saying that I fully recognize and appreciate the bright side of it and what the Kent/Faloon/LEF empire has funded in R&D and other cryonics-related areas.

COMMENT: At risk of being accused of bias here (so who here has none?), let me ask, then: why are you complaining? The SA facility, warts and all, has been nearly donated to the cryonics community. Anybody can use it, for a small fraction of the money it took to create it. Some of the same is true of certain products of CCR and other cryobiology companies. But does anybody say "Thank you?" No, all we get is whining about lift gates and location and salaries. Next, it will be that the money could have been used for starving children in Africa. The poor who you have with you always. Okay, so what are you doing spending your money on cryonics, anyway?

If you don't like SA and CI, there's a very simple solution: sign up with CI only. Or with Alcor and specify "No SA, even if I'm rotting near Florida." There you are. I don't want you to be unhappy. But don't come here and complain about a product you don't have to buy. That reminds me too much of the classic Woody Allen joke in Annie Hall: "The food is horrible! And such small portions!"

And to Melody Maxim: I wasn't kidding about volunteering or selling your services as a perfusionist to Alcor. You can be on-call from afar, in this day and age of jet travel.

And BTW, as to the question of how do I know that ACS has patients from California to Florida, when their rosters are secret? Answer: by knowing some of their members personally. Yes, indeed, the minimum I'd have to know, to make that statement, would be two. Notice, however, that the point would not be diminished. There's not a cryonics organization out there that doesn't need all the help it can get. Let us therefore cooperate where we can, to allow the U.S. cryonicist maximal choice for minimal cost, so that the only rotten thing in Florida is their election process.

And no whining! That applies whether or not you actually do cryonics (and are thus an "inner circle" person-- blyeh!), or whether you don't (and thus probably know too little about it). If you don't like your options in cryonics, go donate or volunteer. Armchair critics that it doesn't work like our trillion dollar medical system, are not needed. You may have noticed that even our trillion dollar medical system is a little busted.

SBH





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George
(Login George1st)
Why this side show?
July 5 2007, 2:09 AM

Steve Harris: “If you don't like SA and CI, there's a very simple solution: sign up with CI only. Or with Alcor and specify "No SA, even if I'm rotting near Florida." There you are. I don't want you to be unhappy.”

Dr. Harris, it would be time for you to stop and think. I do not know your reasons for your trolling on behalf of SA, but it probably has gone too far. Instead, I would like to hear directly from SA answers to the serious charges made against them (and I think they are quite serious charges). But I do not think SA will do so while your side show is going on.


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Steve Harris
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You're Going to Bust Something...
July 5 2007, 3:30 AM

GEORGE: "Dr. Harris, it would be time for you to stop and think. I do not know your reasons for your trolling on behalf of SA, but it probably has gone too far. Instead, I would like to hear directly from SA answers to the serious charges made against them (and I think they are quite serious charges). But I do not think SA will do so while your side show is going on."

ANSWER: Why not? SA can do whatever they like, since space here is not on premium. Nor does SA or anybody else in cryonics need me to remind them that they don't owe you, or anybody else on Coldfilter, the time of day. "Serious charges"?! "Gone too far?!" Says you?? You're going to get a hernia carrying around that gigantic sense of entitlement you have. Try again.

SBH




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George
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Something already seems to be busted...
July 5 2007, 11:04 AM

Steve Harris: “SA can do whatever they like”

SA apparently will not explain here anything. Why should they, when they have a troll doing their bidding?

Steve Harris: “since space here is not on premium.”

Space is not on premium, but calm reasoning seems to be disappearing fast.

Steve Harris: “Nor does SA or anybody else in cryonics need me to remind them that they don't owe you, or anybody else on Coldfilter, the time of day.”

You are right, but SA silence is giving those charges against them added weight.

Steve Harris: "Serious charges"?! "Gone too far?!" Says you??

Wrong, Dr. Harris. Others have said it, not me. Here is what a former SA management insider said: “I'm complaining about what I consider to be unethical behavior and medical malpractice. SA shouldn't be selling medical procedures they are not qualified to provide, while pretending to be experts when they are not.” So, Dr. Harris, please get your facts straight. Charge of malpractice could be trivial perhaps only to you and to SA. Furthermore, you are NOT qualified, nor apparently authorized to defend in SA behalf against such charges!

Steve Harris: You're going to get a hernia carrying around that gigantic sense of entitlement you have.”

I absolutely have no such sense. Neither you, or SA, does not owe me anything. So lets keep it that way. But IMHO they owe an explanation to their paid customers, and perhaps to the cryonics community at large. I emphasize they, NOT you.

Steve Harris: “ Try again.”

Please tell it rather to SA, perhaps it will help.


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Melody Maxim
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Re: Even Smellier, and Where I Would Prefer Not to Go, but ...
July 5 2007, 9:27 AM

HARRIS: ...why are you complaining? The SA facility, warts and all, has been nearly donated to the cryonics community. Anybody can use it, for a small fraction of the money it took to create it...But does anybody say "Thank you?" No, all we get is whining about lift gates and location and salaries...don't come here and complain about a product you don't have to buy."

I'm not complaining about a product I don't have to buy, (and I ain't buyin' it, either). I'm complaining about what I consider to be unethical behavior and medical malpractice. SA shouldn't be selling medical procedures they are not qualified to provide, while pretending to be experts when they are not. Of course, cryonicists don't have a lot of choices and, as one of them recently pointed out to me, "People who are starving will eat from a garbage can."

HARRIS: And to Melody Maxim: I wasn't kidding about volunteering or selling your services as a perfusionist to Alcor. You can be on-call from afar, in this day and age of jet travel.

Will you please quit telling me, (and everyone else here), what to do? I can take care of my relationship with Alcor, without your help, thank you very much. Or, are you fishing to see if I have a relationship with Alcor?

HARRIS: If you don't like your options in cryonics, go donate or volunteer. Armchair critics that it doesn't work like our trillion dollar medical system, are not needed. You may have noticed that even our trillion dollar medical system is a little busted.

As Platt pointed out to Kent, before I was hired, I did donate a portion of my time to SA, during my consulting days with them. The reason I'm back in my armchair is, I couldn't stomach being paid more than $36 an hour to support Platt's efforts that are misguided, at the very least. He didn't hire me to contribute; he hired me to make himself look good. A good portion of my time was spent in endless debates with him, whenever I (or anybody else) wanted to do something in a way that meant he was going to have fewer design and fabrication hours. And he makes a lot more money than I did. My co-managers used to frequently agree with me that TONS of money was being wasted, but they would always say things like, "What do you care? It's not your money. Just collect your check, go home and forget about it." Maybe that's your attitude, also.


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Melody Maxim
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Re: Even Smellier, and Where I Would Prefer Not to Go, but ...
July 5 2007, 9:39 AM

I can't say I really got to know Kent, while I was at SA, though I did have a significant amount of communication with him, after Charles' "resignation." He doesn't seem at all like Platt, or Harris. They both seem rather impulsive and frantic, to me, while he is the epitomy of calmness, as far as I can see. I truly don't understand how he cannot see how much time and money has been wasted, at SA, unless it is just a result of ignorance of existing equipment and procedures.

I think you believe SA exists for Kent and Faloon's benefit, for the most part, but I don't understand that, either. If they want to insure they have successful cryopreservations, they sure are going about it a funny way. Regardless, ultimately, you are correct; LEF is responsible for the lack of progress at SA, even if it is simply by placing their trust in the wrong man.


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Finance Department
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Then maybe it's simply that Saul Kent doesn't pay enough attention to what goes on.
July 6 2007, 12:29 AM

It could be partly he has so much money he doesn't care about waste. It could be he places too much reliance and trust in his "inner circle" subordinates. Those would also mean, of course, that he is not paying enough attention to whether optimal resources and procedures are being utilized, and in that, he is not paying enough attention to what will eventually be the best cryopreservation for him. Maybe Mr. Kent needs to wake up and realize things like if the best treatment SA's CI patient gets, is service from three nonmedical staff (have they all even had training in what they did or did they just get out tools and tubing and take directions over the phone? - a new meaning for "remote" standby & transport!) then that is about the same treatment Kent would get if he deanimated somewhere 1500 miles away.


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Steve Harris
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Re: Comparative expertise
July 4 2007, 2:04 PM

Fiberpatrol: "Dr. Harris who for 20 years has been reviving animals from extremes of temperature and ischemic time far outside anything ever done in clinical medicine."

Cytosine: "This was much more of a collaborative endeavour than your phrasing suggests."

COMMENT: Indeed it was, and I'd be the last person to suggest otherwise.

Steve Harris






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